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  Click here to read Moral's article on Macau's return to Chinese rule, Dec 20, 1999

Taiwan has been a little 'famous' recently because of the political stuff - mostly of course to do with the question of relations between China and Taiwan. What are your feelings about this? Do you think it is good that Hong Kong and Macau have been returned to China? And what do you see as the best path for the future of Taiwan?

As to your question, ummm...it's really tough to answer it. Different people have different opinions even in Taiwan itself. For me, if I wrote these down in detail, it would become a dissertation. Anyway, I will try my best to say it briefly.

The relations between Macau, Hong Kong and Taiwan are totally different. Macau is closer to China both in position and political organization, and that's why people in Macau did not have such strong feelings about their return to China. Although Hong Kong is also close to China, and since they were governed by British and live in a democratic society for a long time (for a human being, it's long enough), no one wanted to go back to the arms of communism. They immigrated to other places if they could. (I think everyone knows how many people in Canada come from there; certainly, some of them moved to Taiwan.)

The people in Hong Kong do not have as much freedom as they had before. Even though the officials have claimed that they would treat Hong Kong as a special area and use a different way to govern it, it's not like that. Some public decisions were made in private and people didn't know anything about them until they were announced. (The government said that they had invited the public and scholars to join their conference to dicuss those topics but the thing is, they did not spread the news to let everyone know.)

I have no particular feelings about these two places actually. I am just writing down what I know about them. Oh, one more thing - you can use your eyes to see the economic changes in Hong Kong before and after the return to China.

Could I take a break? I need to organize my thinking first before saying the main part. You are so NICE to me, Mike, I have only been here a few days, and you give me a such big assignment!!!

BTW, if there are any friends from China, please don't feel offended by my statements. That is not my intention.

Ming

Hi Ming and Moral,

Ming, have you met Moral? You can meet him at

http://members.tripod.com/vstevens/efi/moral.htm

I can see that you are both articulate people and I look forward to participating in your friendly discussions.

There is one thing I have been wanting to ask people on this list, but I was waiting for the right moment. Maybe this is it ...

When Macau returned to Chinese rule recently, the headlines in the UAE papers went something like this:

Macau returns to China (big headline) ... Beijing turns attention to rapprochement with Taiwan (smaller headline) ...

(or something like that)

I think this is a good place to ask how people in China and in Taiwan feel about these developments because we are all people living in these places and we are not part of the governments of these places. So perhaps we can talk about these things from a people's point of view and not a government point of view.

Anyway, I'm curious what people all over the world think about this.

Peacefully,

Vance

Hello Ming,

It is my great pleasure to meet you here on the list too. I've seen that your English is very good. If you don't think the same about mine, I'll get some very good material for the assignment about embarrassment. :)

I really appreciate your opinions about the relations between Macau, Hong Kong and China and between Macau, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Anyway, it is great to know about things in different ways. I think there is still something to discuss if you would like to. Please forgive me, I now fire the first shot before you load bullets:

You say Hong Kong was a democracy before its return to China. Yes, as we know, Britain is a democratic country. But it didn't let Hong Kong residents elect their own leader. It just sent a governor there who didn't understand Hong Kong well and who the people of Hong Kong didn't know well at first. And as far as I know, Hong Kong residents could not participate in the elections of the British Prime Minister or any others. So I don't think they were in a real democracy although they might have enjoyed freedom as did the English. But I agree that Britain did a good job there.

Hong Kong is not and will not be under Communism because it was consolidated under the principle of ' One country, two systems'. And I don't think things will change in the future because Hong Kong residents must enjoy their own political system which is all different from China's. They also share their freedom under the Basic Law. For example, they can freely immigrate to any other country, even now.

Almost the same things apply in Macau. Anyway, I believe Hong Kong and Macau both have a bright future. Please forgive me if I wrote anything wrong or different from your thoughts. I am not there and I might get false information.

What do you think Ming? :) Wow, I can hear you are loading bullets. :o

And how do you think Webheads?

Good luck to everyone,

Moral under seige

Yeah, what you said is true. But let's get back to what a country should be. Why do we need a country? In my way of thinking, the purpose of having a country is to protect people from others' unfair treatment and to establish institutions to maintain a balance in a society. Nothing is perfect, but not only can the people in Hong Kong choose the leader, they still have their freedom. They can have opinions and criticize their government without fear of retribution (and they indeed receive those suggestions).

Of course they couldn't vote for the prime minister in the UK. How can you expect that the British would allow a colony to do that? It's impossible that they treat Hong Kong as their own land, since it was under a short-term contract. It's a good thing not to be governed by a foreign country, but, let's have a look at the other side; if you were one of the people who lived there for your whole life, and even if where you lived was returned to the initial country but you lost more rights than you had had before, what would you do? That's what the people did in Hong Kong ( I am just trying to point out why they take this kind of action--> moving to other countries.)

I hope you dont mind. =) ).We only have a short life in the world, I need to confess that I care about myself, and what I am more than other things. If you can't raise your voice for everything the government does, at least you can make your life better!

I did not mean a democratic country would be better than other countries using different theories to take charge of their country, but the freedom that the people in a democratic county have is a great treasure in the world. Once you have it, you would not want anyone to take it back. For Taiwanese, we are not governed by any other country. After the Japanese went back to Japan, the situation was totally different from the other two places. Now, the government of China is just playing a game on a global scale, trying to confuse others' to make them blind to the relations between us. Certainly, few countries would like to confess that Taiwan is an independent country in public because of the power that China wields, however, it has existed almost a century, and no one can deny the fact ( like no Japanese can eliminate what they did in China in World War II). Sometimes I really think it's ridiculous to insist whether this reality exists and play the words' game around the world (both China and Taiwan are guilty of this). If they have the energy to do that, why don't they use those resources and money to help their people to live better?

Ummm..., I think I have made some mistakes in the first version of this letter. The theory that China uses is not Communism, but socialism, which is different. From history, I can understand why they use it in such a vast land, and I don't know if they would have been better off under another system during that period (No one knows, it just goes like that).

BTW, do you think people who have the same cultural and ancestoral background should form one country no matter how their life styles vary? The Chinese people of Singapore never insists that they are Chinese (but they are!) Some Japanese are from ancient China, do they need to go back to China? Let's jump out of this misonception. Most Americans are originally from Britain, just as are Austrlians. Would it be better if they united to be only one country? Can't different countries get along with each other well?

I think respect is an important word. You need to respect what people want, what they need, and not just try to control everything by force. Taiwan is not a really democratic country (at least, its stock market is still interfered with by the government) but it tends in this direction. We can say our own opinions loudly in public and know which politicians are corrupt. Freedom is the basis of everything, because of it, knowledge is not controlled by anyone but oneself. Once you have enough knowledge about things, you can compare them and decide what is better for you; for me, that's freedom and I appreciate it.

Every country has its own way to go, and ways to solve its problems. China is not a bad country to live in, but its current situation indeed differs from that of Taiwan. If the government in China just keeps despising and devaluating Taiwan as a local government, it would lead to a big reaction from the Taiwanese.

ummm, have I gone too far? I don't know, I am kind of subjective, I think...

Everyone have a great day! 

ming

P.S If I say something that irritates you, Moral, please accept my apology;

well, I force you take it! =D

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, Moral,

I just want to one more thing that I forgot refer to in the last letter. ( I am careless, and always miss some important thing...)

Even though the government claims that Hong Kong could keep its system and everything would flow with "one country, two system", things are not as they were before. Ummm...., perhaps that's because its system is different from China's model. The Chinese officials think they have granted the residents enough rights but it's fewer than they had; so both sides need to learn and adapt to the other one. However, now is just a start, so we can wait and see how things run. ^-^

Ah, one more thing, the people in Hong Kong can not vote in UK affairs, but they still can manage their own land. =)

ming ~still diving under the bombs, hoping I can swim, float on, fly away from the bombs someday!

Hi Ming,

Thanks for your opinions. You are a talented female who knows and writes much. I believe we have put the discussion in its most friendly atmosphere. :-)

Yes, I agree they had the freedom to criticize the government under British rule. But electing their own leader seemed more important than that and was the basis of everything. If they can choose their own leader, they can certainly criticize him and even remove him from office. Isn't it cool? As a matter of fact, I haven't got any information suggesting that Hong Kong residents have lost all freedom of speech. And I know that many Hong Kong residents demonstrated on the streets against the central government's ban of Falungong. When the Asian Financial crisis struck Hong Kong, the people and the government fought it together.

I never expected them to do so. I don't think people in colonies would have enough freedom and democracy. I cited that to point out that if a bad governor came they could do nothing except criticize him. So it was not real democracy.

I don't know much about the right of Hong Kong residents to leave Hong Kong. Could you let me know more? How many people left their land before and afterwards returned. And are they still leaving now? I couldn't get the information about this.

Yes, I understand.

Every government says democracy is admirable anyway.

I agree! It's quite different. It's so hard.

Do you mean a totally independent country different from China? Please don't!

Of course, they are different. You know so much.

I don't know. I am not sure. But the differences in life styles seems not to be enough to separate us.

Of course not. But there are still some differences: the Taiwanese government represented all of China in the UN until 1971. And the US recognized only the Taiwanese government as the Chinese government until 1979. In the late 1980s, I used to like to listen to the radio ' the Voice of Free China' from Taiwan. Its goal was to consolidate the mainland and Taiwan. Of course, their slogan was 'recover the rule the of mainland'. Is seems that they gave it up in less than 10 years.

Yes, everyone needs respect. I don't like to be forced either. I am glad to see how things are going in Taiwan anyway.

I don't think everything the Chinese government does is correct. It lacks communications.

You need to tell me more because I don't know it. I don't think it is wise to interfere in Hong Kong's internal business. I was told that China has done as promised mostly and the international society has acknowledged this.

Yes, we can keep our eyes on it. How will Hong Kong's future be?

No, I don't mind.

OK, I take it, I take it...

As a matter of fact, Ming, there is no apology needed. We are talking friendly although we may hold different views. I appreciate and respect your opinions. :-)

Have a nice weekend!

Moral

Hey, Moral,

I think I have got lots of embarrassing experiences from you; you have given me too many compliments so far! Sounds too good to be true... I am really afraid of discussing this topic with people from China since many people there are aggressive and are unable listen to others. Sometimes they are paranoid. You are really beyond my expectations and open-minded! :o  

But even though they have gone back to China, people still cannot vote for their own leader, right? China assigns the person for them. I know there have been some objections in Hong Kong regarding the decision that the government made in appointing the new leader, but these have been to no avail. Although the residents in Hong Kong still have the right of free speech, their voice is hesitant. Not everybody is brave enough to test the government's reaction to see whether its declaration of free speech is true (neither am I, I am timid ...)  

> I never expected them to do so. I don't think people in colonies would have enough freedom and democracy. I cited that to point out that if a bad governer came they could do nothing except criticism. So it was not real democracy.

That's not quite true. In the past, the government of Hong Kong still accepted and respected those suggestions before they made decisions. Now the Chinese government does not really do the same; for example, in the case of the construction of the new airport. They did not ask the local residents' opinion, nor did they ask for suggestions from experts, but they just did what they had planned to do all along. They claimed that they had posted the announcement to invite the residents and people to join their conferences and offer their opinions but nobody showed up (in fact, that news was little known by the people...). The tragedy is, the people who live near the new airport are suffering physical injury because of the sound of planes --> it is too close to their community. Also, they have had more aircraft accidents since they did not consider the factors of weather and location when they decided where to build the airport. Before, people could use the power of criticism to make their lives better, and now, it's useless...(the government always says they do everything for the people, like they always can find a reason to ban people from joining some religion...one time I watched China's TV news from here, and the surprising thing is, what it reports is often totally different from the news I read from other countries. Too many things make me feel hesitant to trust China's government; if they can always filter the information and only provide the news they want their people to know, how can I tell when they actually tell the truth?)  

I think it's a tide of emigration. A lot of people moved out of Hong Kong before 1997. If they had enough money, they moved to Canada, while others moved to the countries around it. Within that period, the number of Hong Kong people in the southern part of Taiwan increased. Since I lived there at that period, I can verify this (please don't ask me how to tell them from local people, it's so easy to distinguish the difference). I think it's because these people lack a sense of security. Now the majority of some big cities in Canada are Chinese (I think the number of cities is two, I am not quite sure of it), and most of them are from Hong Kong. Perhaps Michael and Ravon know more about this than I do. 

> Every governmnet says democracy is admirable anyway.

And it's expensive.

So, What Taiwan is right now? We do not belong to China. We have our own government, and commerce with other countries including China. We have territory, people, government, our own rights to the land ... is that not the definition of a country? BTW, we use traditional Chinese -- Big5 code, you use simplified Chinese -- GB code. The way we talk is different from your way of speaking. Even in writing, our grammar also has changed slightly. American and British people still use the same language system, how about us? Taiwan is closer to Singapore since they still use traditional Chinese. (I also rather use this system, it not only preserves the traditional shape of Chinese words but is also more beautiful from my view, to look at). If our governments change their attitude toward each other, what's the need to force Taiwan to belong to China? We have slightly different cultures right now, so why we should we need to be forced to accept China's model? Do you ever think about why Mongolia wants to separate from China? It's because their culture needs to be respected. So far I can't see that the government in China has done anything to show their respect for Taiwan, but only issued threats and terror. How can you expect the Taiwanese to believe China would let them keep their current style of life? China is afraid that they couldn't control the people any more. Take e-commerce, for example; they have been "investigating" opening this market to foreign countries for a long while but they cannot keep filtering information to people for so long.

If I have said anything wrong, please correct me.

Why? That means they have already formed a different culture, right? I did not insist we should be independent, I just want you to think about it, about what's the difference between dependent and independent? We would not become enemies; we would still keep communication with each other after independence, but we would just have our own different life styles and cultures. Why do we need to be united? From history, Taiwan didn't really belong to China. They never really cared about this island. Even the Japanese made greater contributions on it. It's hard to persuade people here that China is their motherland and they should go back to its arms, except for a few old soldiers (but even some of them have changed their minds by now). If you ask the older generation, you might get the answer that they would rather be a Japanese than Chinese. However, I don't think I need to argue this point; for me, Taiwan has been an independent country for a long while. I don't need to mention it particularly although no nations dare to declare this in public.  

So you can see how selfish both Chinese governments are! You feel glad that eventually China can replace Taiwan's government in the Unions. Have you ever thought about the people in Taiwan? Since those politicians want more power for themselves, they sacrifice the people's interest just for themselves. Why have those countries changed their mind? It's because China owns powerful weapons. You can't deny it.  

Thanks, I am also looking at it from a 3rd country. =)

I think you misread what I said before. Neither do I think the government should intervene in Hong Kong's business market, so I protest Taiwan's government doing that. I wrote it down to be ironic. What I care about more is people's standard of living. Actually I don't care about the official affairs but only about how they would affect the residents' daily lives. I have mentioned that above.  

II hope everything gets better and better. :o)

It's also my pleasure to talk about it with you and share our feelings with others on-line. ^-^

BTW, do you have any feelings about those innocent people who have been accused of some nonsense, have been arrested and spent their whole life in jail through several internal revolutions in China? If you think this question is inappropriate, please ignore it..  

have a joyful day.

BTW, Moral, let me remind you Ying-Lan is there; so, prepare, aim in her direction, ready, bang! 

Ming

Well. .., I am not good at politics. It's really difficult for me to write down any thoughts about it... I was sweating when trying to reply to those mails though it was cold outside...could we avoid this kind of sensitive topic later? I need to take training before I continue it... ^^;;  

ming

I'm glad to meet a lot of new friends here.

Especially for Ming, I am very proud of her.

Like someone who threw a stone into a pond.

It's very interesting to read your emails. ;-))

Hello Ming, 

> I think I have get lots of embarrassed experiences from you; you gave
> me too much compliment so far! Sounds too good to be true...

>

Don't say so. You are a very well-argued guy and I really appreciate it.

>I really afraid

> of discussing this topic with people from China since too many people are

> aggressive and could not listen to others, sometimes they are paranoid. You

> are really out of my expection and open-minded! :o

>

I am afraid to discuss sensitive questions too. But let us finish it since we have started it. I look forward to talking some more interesting and easy topic with you. :-)

> But even they back to China, people still can not vote for their own leader,

> right? China assign the person for them. I know there have some objection in

> Hong Kong for the decision that the government did( I mean, assign a people

> for them) but it's useless. The residents in Hong Kong still have rights

> for speech, however, their voice slow down. not everybody brave enough to

> test government's respond to see whether their declaration is true.(neither

> do I, I am timid... =P)

>

I am afraid there is something in need to be clarified. The HongKong reisdents did elect their leader themselves. In about 1996, the Hongkong residents elected a committee themselves which was responsible for electing their own leader. Then the applicants for the leader were collected. Every HongKong citizen had the right to enter for. I remember 7 people did it including a Taxi driver and a retired civilian. After that, a preelection was performed and several applicants were preelected to become the governer candidates. Finally, the HongKong governer was engendered afer a final vote of the committee and he was a businessman who was born and grew up in HongKong apart from a few school years aboard. So the leader was not sent by any other government and the Hongkong people chose him unless the committee betrayed them. The HongKong people hold their passports that are visa-free to dozens of countries. I think many people are willing to fight for their right if it is in need.

> It's not quite true, in the past, government still accept and repect those

> suggestion from places before they make decision. Now the China government

> did not really do the same, for example, the new airport's construction.

> They did not ask the local resident's opinion, did not ask the suggestions

> from experts, just did what they plan to do. They claim that they had post

> the announcement to invite the residents and people to join their

> conferences and offer their opinions but no body shows up( in fact, that

> news is seldom known by people...). The tragedy is, the people live near

> the new airport got phical injury because of the sound of planes-->it is too

> closed to their community. Also, they have more aircrafts' accident since

> they did not consider the factor of wether and location when they decide the

> location to build airport. Before, people can use the power of criticism to

> make their life better, and now, it's useless...(the government always say

> they do everything for people, like they always can find the reason to ban

> people from joining some religion

>

Ming, I am afraid you cited a bad example. The governer of Hongkong announced the plan to construct a new airport at Chek Lap Kok in 1989 when HongKong was under the British rule. If my memory serves me, the Chinese government and the British government conflicted for it before the construction started. The Chinese government oppose the plan because of the huge amount of money involved and something else. We know British won finally. And the construction was begun several years before Hongkong's return to the Chinese rule. For some datails about the airport's key dates and events. Please visit:

http://www.hkairport.com/about/main/cindex.htm (Big5 Chinese)

http://www.hkairport.com/about/main/index.htm (English)

Of course, I don't mean the airport is not good.

>...once time I watch China's TV news from

> here, the surprised thing is, what it report is totally different from the

> news I read from other countries. Too many things make me feel hard to trust

> China's government; if they can always filter the info. and only provide the

> news they want their people, how can I tell when their saying is true?)

>

I agree that the people need truth.

> I think it's an emigrantion tide. A lot of people move out from Hong

> Kong before 1997; if they have enough money, they move to Canada, others

> move to the countries arround it. Within that period, the number of Hong

> Kong people in the southern part of Taiwan increased, since I lived there at

> that period, I can prove it(please dont ask me how to tell them from local

> people, it's so easy to distinguish the difference). I think that is people

> lacking of the sense of security. Now the majority of some big cities in

> Canada are Chinese( I think the number of cities is two, I am not quite sure

> of it), and most of them are from Hong Kong. Perhaps Michael and Ravon know

> it better than me.

>

Thanks for the information. I didn't know it much. Things might be very bad then. But please let me assume some situations:

1. People left Hongkong before Jul 1st, 1997, because of the fears of the possible changes of their life.

2. If less left and a few came back after that, can we think that the people got confidence about their life after some abservation and would like to live in this land?

3. If they don't leave now, maybe they enjoy their life now.

> So, What Taiwan is right now? We are not belong to China, have our own

> government, have business with countries included China. We have territory,

> people, government, our own rights for the land, is that the definition of a

> country?

>

It's quite hard to say. Really! You can say it is enough but others can say not.

> BTW, we use traditional Chinese--Big5 code, you use simplify

> Chinese--GB code,

>

It's very easy to tranlate these two codes with a very small programe less than 1 Megabytes. We use traditional Chinese in some occasions. And HongKong entirely use Big5 Chinese. .

>the way we talk is different from your speaking, even in

> writing, our grammer also have slight changes. American and British people

> are still use the same language system, how about us? Taiwan is more close

> to Singapore since they still use traditional Chinese.( I also rather use

> this system, it's not only preserve the tradition shape of Chinese words but

> also more beautiful from my view.) to look.

>

I like to watch traditional Chinese too. There are many Chinese people in the ethnic groups who don't know Chinese at all, but they are Chinese.

>If governments change their

> attitude to each other, what's the really matter need to force Taiwan belong

> to China? We have silght different culture right now, why we need to force

> to accept to China's module? Do you ever think why Mongolia want to seperate

> from China? That's because of the culture need to be respected. So far I

> cant see the government in China did anything to show their respection to

> Taiwan but threaten and terrification, how can you let Taiwanese believe

> China would keep their current type of life?

>

I cann't. It is too hard.

>China is afraid that they

> couldnt control people any more; like e-commerce, they hesitate opening

> this market to foreign countries investigating for a long while since they

> can not keep filtering info. to people too long. If I say anything wrong,

> please correct me.

>

Information can not be blocked even now. It's trend.

>

> why? that means they already form different culture, right? I did not

> insist we should be independent, just want you to think about it, what's the

> difference between dependent and independent? We would not become enemy and

> still keep communication with each other after independent, just own

> different different life style and culture, why we need to be united? From

> history, Taiwan didnt really belong to China, they never really care about

> this island, even Japanese did more contribution on it.

>

But the Taiwanese government is from Nanjing, China and it was the Chinese central government before 1949. The government is now in Taipei and seems to want to produce another country.

>It's hard to persuad

> people that China is their motherland and they should go back to its arm

> except those old solders( but some of them also changed their mind now). If

> you ask the old generation, you might get the answer, they would rather be a

> Japanese than a Chinese. However, I dont think I need to insist this part;

> for me, Taiwan was an independent country for a long while, dont need to

> mention it particularly although no nations dare to confess it in the

> public.

>

It's sad to hear that. You can hold your thoughts.

> So you can see how selfish both Chinese governments are! You feel glad

> that eventually China can replace of Taiwan's government in the Unions,

>

No, I don't think so.

>have

> you ever think about the people in Taiwan? Since those politicians want more

> power for themselves, they sacrify people's interest just for themselves.

> Why those countries change their mind? That's because China owns

> powerful weapon, you cant deny it.

>

I don't think so many countries fear China's weapons - they are not so powerful. You must know the British government also wants to keep North Ireland. I understand the feeling. Most Chinese people don't want to see Taiwan's independence. I don't think they are for any power. I bet the Taiwanese government will ge much more power after independence. But so many people are following it.

> > You need to tell me more because I don't know it. I don't think it is wise

> to interfere HongKong's internal business. I was told that China has done as

> promised mostly and the international society admit it.

> >

>

> I think you mislead what I said before. neither do I think the

> government should intervene their business market, so I protest Taiwan's

> government doing that. I wote down it for ironic. =P What I more care about

> is people's living. Actually I dont care the official affair but about that

> does they would affect residents' daily life. I have mentioned that above.

>

I am not good at economics, but when a financial crisis came, if the interfere could punish the speculator,

why wasn't the government flexible enough to do it. But I am not sure.

> BTW, do you have any feelings about those innocent people who alleged

> for some nonsense statements by people, arrestted and spent their whole life

> in jail through several internal revolutions in China? If you think this

> question is inappropriate, please ignore it..

>

It's too long to talk and it's out of the subject so I don't talk about it here and now.

Thank you Ming for letting me know a lot about Taiwan which I din't know before. :-)) It is being so nice to talk with you. :-))

Good luck!

Moral

Hi, Moral,

> I am afraid there is something in need to be clarified. The HongKong

reisdents did elect their leader themselves. In about 1996, the Hongkong

residents elected a committee themselves which was responsible for electing

their own leader. Then the applicants for the leader were collected. Every

HongKong citizen had the right to enter for. I remember 7 people did it

including a Taxi driver and a retired civilian. After that, a preelection

was performed and several applicants were preelected to become the governer

candidates. Finally, the HongKong governer was engendered afer a final vote

of the committee and he was a businessman who was born and grew up in

HongKong apart from a few school years aboard. So the leader was not sent by

any other government and the Hongkong people chose him unless the committee

betrayed them. The HongKong people hold their passports that are visa-free

to dozens of countries. I think many people are willing to fight for their

right if it is in need.

>

> Ming, I am afraid you cited a bad example. The governer of Hongkong

announced the plan to construct a new airport at Chek Lap Kok in 1989 when

HongKong was under the British rule. If my memory serves me, the Chinese

government and the British government conflicted for it before the

construction started. The Chinese government oppose the plan because of the

huge amount of money involved and something else. We know British won

finally. And the construction was begun several years before Hongkong's

return to the Chinese rule. For some datails about the airport's key dates

and events. Please visit:

> http://www.hkairport.com/about/main/cindex.htm (Big5 Chinese)

> http://www.hkairport.com/about/main/index.htm (English)

> Of course, I don't mean the airport is not good.

>

I am sorry that I got the wrong info. . Besides news, I also read some info.

from the newsletter from Hong Kong, and that's what it told me. I am not

sure the website still there, I need take time to find it...

> Thanks for the information. I didn't know it much. Things might be very

bad then. But please let me assume some situations:

> 1. People left Hongkong before Jul 1st, 1997, because of the fears of the

possible changes of their life.

> 2. If less left and a few came back after that, can we think that the

people got confidence about their life after some abservation and would like

to live in this land?

> 3. If they don't leave now, maybe they enjoy their life now.

>

The problem is, even people go back to Hong Kong sometimes, they just go

back to visit and still live oversea. Meanwhile, most students I know they

dont want back to Hong Kong also. I can not say anything about your

assumptions, we need to ask more people from Hong Kong first.

> It's quite hard to say. Really! You can say it is enough but others can

say not.

If you can not really opposite this statement, how can you say it's not a

independent country? Does their has other definition for a country?

> It's very easy to tranlate these two codes with a very small programe less

than 1 Megabytes. We use traditional Chinese in some occasions. And HongKong

entirely use Big5 Chinese. .

It's not only about different shape of words, language is affected by

culture and society also; you can find more differences on writing. Of

course, it's not difficult to recognize simplize Chinese for me, like I can

read some Japanese and English, however, it's not my native language.

> >If governments change their

> > attitude to each other, what's the really matter need to force Taiwan

belong

> > to China? We have silght different culture right now, why we need to

force

> > to accept to China's module? Do you ever think why Mongolia want to

seperate

> > from China? That's because of the culture need to be respected. So far I

> > cant see the government in China did anything to show their respection

to

> > Taiwan but threaten and terrification, how can you let Taiwanese believe

> > China would keep their current type of life?

> >

> I cann't. It is too hard.

>

So, what you expect Taiwanese do if China just want Taiwan but dont promise

the living of people?

> Information can not be blocked even now. It's trend.

>

Are you sure? they still filter the info. on the internet and only open what

they think hermless; recently they moniter it for some news and change some

regulations.( I am guite sure it's correct this time. :> ) Also, they stop

some foreign programs in some specific day and say that there has some

problem with the transmission. like the day closed to the date 6/4.

Meanwhile, they also deceit people and cover the truth, like what KMT did in

Taiwan but more.

> But the Taiwanese government is from Nanjing, China and it was the Chinese

central government before 1949. The government is now in Taipei and seems to

want to produce another country.

I am sorry that I can not agree with you at this point, actually, we already

have different country names since that moment, remember?

> It's sad to hear that. You can hold your thoughts.

>

Sorry, Moral, I cant see something wrong with my saying to make you feel

sorrow, if China cant do something for Taiwanese to make them think China's

government is reliable, how can you want people have the same standing with

you? I think it's a really nature thing. =)

If you were a Taiwanese, what would you do? If China is good enough to be

followed, why so many people in Taiwan have sounds for protesting China's

saying? The government in Taiwan can not force people say anything that they

disagree with.

> > So you can see how selfish both Chinese governments are! You feel

glad

> > that eventually China can replace of Taiwan's government in the Unions,

> >

> No, I don't think so.

>

Why? Before China entered the Unions, you felt upset about it; after that

Taiwanese felt bad for it, why cant say they are selfish? Both dont consider

the other's situation. If we cant stand in different angles to look at the

same thing, we would be subjective.

> I don't think so many countries fear China's weapons - they are not so

powerful. You must know the British government also wants to keep North

Ireland. I understand the feeling. Most Chinese people don't want to see

Taiwan's independence. I don't think they are for any power. I bet the

Taiwanese government will ge much more power after independence. But so many

people are following it.

>

If you have other thinking, please permit me ask you one thing, China dont

have strong economic power but Taiwan do, if China is also not strong at

military, what they use to warn other countries not let Taiwan join some

organizations? As I know, China sells weapon to other countries and owns

nuclear weapon. They did some nuclear tests under permission by other

countries before also(those countries that own nuclear weapon have some

agreements for testing ). Recently it also developes weapon and seeks for

other countries to coporate with agressively, it has invoke the awareness in

the world. They are not strong at this field? Hard to believe it.(for me, at

least)

> I am not good at economics, but when a financial crisis came, if the

interfere could punish the speculator,

> why wasn't the government flexible enough to do it. But I am not sure.

>

Neither am I, you can not rely on classical economic theorems to explain

current situations. There has some people make efforts on explaining why the

USA's economic do not go down as expected. Whatever, it's not my major. =)

> Thank you Ming for letting me know a lot about Taiwan which I din't know

before. :-)) It is being so nice to talk with you. :-))

It's my honor to share some part of my thinking with you too though we are

varies at some issues. I cant not present the whole Taiwanese, Taiwan has

too much voice for it. ^^

Besides, I dont think it would get any influence after Taiwan announce

independent( just an assumption, dont worry about it too much), Taiwan has

been independent physically, where the government can get more power for

it?(In a democratic country, the institution can be stronger and more

completely, but not the government). Taiwan's government is just under

transition to real democratic country, since it allows people to criticize

everything and it's easy to read bad thoughts for governments on the net,

you would think Taiwanese is not really satisfy with the government;

however, if you let people choose which government to belong to, they

rather keeping the current one. Once we know how to gather people's power

and manupulate it, we can change the government to what we want, and it's

hard to do the same thing on China's government. =)

Please forgive me stop replying your letter on this issue later, I think

it's enough, others might feel bored and dull for it. ^^;;

all of you have a great day.

ming

Deden, February 27, 2000

China and Britain signed an agreement about how Hong

Kong should be run for the next fifty years.

is it means that after 50 years, Hongkong will be take

it to UK again?

Michael

Deden - this is a really good question. I have read that article many times

>and that question never occurred to me. I doubt that Hong Kong will return

>to the UK after 50 years, but what is the agreement?

Moral, March 3, 2000

Hello Michael, Deden and everyone,

China and the UK signed the agreement because HongKong would return to

Chinese rule under the principle of 'One country two systems'. So there has

been two systems - Socialism and Capitalism in China since 1997. The Chinese

government agreed that the HongKong residents would keep their system and

life styles unchanged at least for 50 years in the agreement. It meant that

anything would not change in the future 50 years.

I don't think the policy will change even after 50 years. Deden you'll see

it then.

Regards,

Moral 

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